Author Topic: Caveat Emptor -2018 QS 10.0  (Read 11450 times)

RockorSomething

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Re: Caveat Emptor -2018 QS 10.0
« Reply #30 on: August 08, 2017, 07:44:48 PM »
Quote from: Entropy3XD
  I 99% sure one of the benches is not removable in the 8.0\8.1, as it needs to be modified for the bigger wheel wells.  The wheel wells are bigger because they now use 15" tires for the standard package.

According to Livinlite, the benches are removable on the 2018 8.0/.8.1.

Entropy3XD

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Re: Caveat Emptor -2018 QS 10.0
« Reply #31 on: August 08, 2017, 08:50:31 PM »
Quote from: Entropy3XD
  I 99% sure one of the benches is not removable in the 8.0\8.1, as it needs to be modified for the bigger wheel wells.  The wheel wells are bigger because they now use 15" tires for the standard package.

According to Livinlite, the benches are removable on the 2018 8.0/.8.1.

RockorSomething, thank you for the correction.

Dan Miller

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Re: Caveat Emptor -2018 QS 10.0
« Reply #32 on: August 09, 2017, 09:46:32 AM »
Currently the benches ARE NOT removable in the 2018. Noticed I used the word currently.
djmiller - Elkhart Indiana
www.livinlite.com

Entropy3XD

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Re: Caveat Emptor -2018 QS 10.0
« Reply #33 on: August 09, 2017, 08:24:03 PM »
Noticed I used the word currently.

Dan....Thank you.  Good to know someone is listening.

RockorSomething

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Re: Caveat Emptor -2018 QS 10.0
« Reply #34 on: August 11, 2017, 03:44:12 PM »
Had a chance to speak with a representative at Livinlite about the flooring concerns being expressed here.

With his permission, I'm posting below an internal memo he forwarded to me.

Good morning Team.

The following are the laminated floor information.

         Absolutely NO WOOD in the super structure, including the floor system

         5 layers-We use 5 layers to construct the floor.  Lamilux fiberglass top, 1-layer of Azdel, polystyrene(High-density block foam insulation), lastly another layer of Azdel and Darco protective wrap

         Most laminated floor systems use wood product called luan, LL DOES NOT use wood.  We have thoroughly tested(weight per sq inch) this new and improved floor with the fiberglass top layer. it has outperformed the luan constructed laminated floor system used by many manufacturers in the RV industry.

         Aluminum framed floor. R-value is 10 VS previous way was R-0

         Heat/Cold transfer is less do to the insulated floor over the aluminum floor

         High-density Block foam adds noise reduction 

         More comfortable to stand on, Smooth fiberglass top, no ridges like the aluminum floor system

         This new advanced floor is lighter weight than the old floor system. 



I have to admit that having the opportunity to discuss the changes in detail went a long way to help alleviate my concerns.

tinkeringtechie

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Re: Caveat Emptor -2018 QS 10.0
« Reply #35 on: August 11, 2017, 04:14:29 PM »
Finally some info. Thanks for posting it... but why did it take two and a half weeks to get this and why isn't LL just posting it directly? Seems like it should be in their marketing materials honestly. So of the five layers, which is the brown fuzzy one from the video? Is that the fiberglass backing of the Azdel?

DavidM

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Re: Caveat Emptor -2018 QS 10.0
« Reply #36 on: August 11, 2017, 04:28:01 PM »
Well, after reading LLs description of the floor laminate and applying a bit of structural engineering, I think I know why the floor seems to sag a bit when you step on it.

Those materials: Azdel, styrofoam, Azdel may not be bonded to each other like foam cored construction for boats. Lack of bonding allows the layers to slip a little bit against each other when stress is put on them by standing. There isn't anything wrong with this- I am sure the floor won't fail. But if they were bonded together, it would be a whole lot stiffer.

Also it must be pretty thick overall, more than 1" to have an R10 rating.

David

Entropy3XD

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Re: Caveat Emptor -2018 QS 10.0
« Reply #37 on: August 11, 2017, 04:31:39 PM »

Also it must be pretty thick overall, more than 1" to have an R10 rating.

David

It seems to be about 1.5-2 inches.

smjcolsga

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Re: Caveat Emptor -2018 QS 10.0
« Reply #38 on: August 11, 2017, 05:00:40 PM »

I have to admit that having the opportunity to discuss the changes in detail went a long way to help alleviate my concerns.

Cross posting from alternate thread:

I'm glad that LL has confirmed our observations about the new floor construction, and I'm sure the overall materials used in its construction are up to the task. However, I still feel that they could have done a better job implementing it by adding additional floor supports (at least in the QS 10). When you feel the floor 'give' beneath your feet it does not inspire confidence in the new materials or design.. This is especially true when the previous model was well known for its rock-solid stability. This is my opinion, you should judge for yourself.

smjcolsga

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Re: Caveat Emptor -2018 QS 10.0
« Reply #39 on: August 11, 2017, 08:03:38 PM »
Well, after reading LLs description of the floor laminate and applying a bit of structural engineering, I think I know why the floor seems to sag a bit when you step on it.

Those materials: Azdel, styrofoam, Azdel may not be bonded to each other like foam cored construction for boats. Lack of bonding allows the layers to slip a little bit against each other when stress is put on them by standing. There isn't anything wrong with this- I am sure the floor won't fail. But if they were bonded together, it would be a whole lot stiffer.

Also it must be pretty thick overall, more than 1" to have an R10 rating.

David

I wonder also if there is an environmental aspect to using azdel layers for structural support... azdel is a thermoplastic material, I imagine ambient temperature would affect its performance in regard to overall stiffness. It frequently reaches near 100 degrees F ambient temperature here in Southwest Georgia. Am I seeing more of this effect on the unsupported spans of flooring because of that? Also, strictly speaking for myself, being in a warm climate, I see little need for a well-insulated floor in a tent-top camper. Really, what is the R-value of canvas anyway?
« Last Edit: August 11, 2017, 08:08:39 PM by smjcolsga »

RockorSomething

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Re: Caveat Emptor -2018 QS 10.0
« Reply #40 on: August 11, 2017, 10:28:23 PM »
Quote from: smjcolsga
....
Also, strictly speaking for myself, being in a warm climate, I see little need for a well-insulated floor in a tent-top camper. Really, what is the R-value of canvas anyway?

Don't forget, that same insulation keeps cool, air conditioned air from escaping. Coupled with a 'Gizmo', every little bit of cool air helps keep me sane in July and August. :)

smjcolsga

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Re: Caveat Emptor -2018 QS 10.0
« Reply #41 on: August 11, 2017, 10:33:47 PM »
Quote from: smjcolsga
....
Also, strictly speaking for myself, being in a warm climate, I see little need for a well-insulated floor in a tent-top camper. Really, what is the R-value of canvas anyway?

Don't forget, that same insulation keeps cool, air conditioned air from escaping. Coupled with a 'Gizmo', every little bit of cool air helps keep me sane in July and August. :)

Ok, I'll bite... what's a "Gizmo" ?

RockorSomething

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Re: Caveat Emptor -2018 QS 10.0
« Reply #42 on: August 11, 2017, 11:56:54 PM »
Quote from: smjcolsga

Ok, I'll bite... what's a "Gizmo" ?

They can be made yourself using emergency survival blankets and a little ingenuity, but this company does the work for you.
http://www.popupgizmos.com/

smjcolsga

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Re: Caveat Emptor -2018 QS 10.0
« Reply #43 on: August 12, 2017, 07:33:21 AM »
... this company does the work for you.
http://www.popupgizmos.com/

Thank you, i had seen those in pics but didn't know they were commercially made. Definitely on my list... 

smjcolsga

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Re: Caveat Emptor -2018 QS 10.0
« Reply #44 on: August 12, 2017, 07:58:47 AM »


Don't forget, that same insulation keeps cool, air conditioned air from escaping.

You make a good point, I've seen that throwing a rug or two on the floor was a popular thing to do also. If LL can stiffen the floor or support it well enough to not move under foot then they may have a winner with the new floor design. Most, if not all, of the other perceived negative changes which were discussed in these threads could be fixed by owners themselves if they wanted to (adding back the 12v socket for one) although one could argue they shouldn't have to..