Livin' Lite Forum

QuickSilver => QuickSilver Tent Campers => Topic started by: smjcolsga on July 24, 2017, 03:10:08 PM

Title: Caveat Emptor -2018 QS 10.0
Post by: smjcolsga on July 24, 2017, 03:10:08 PM
After doing a lot of research on the QS 10.0 camper model I decided it was a great fit for me and my TV, and since none were to be found on any dealer lot within 1000 miles of me and none with all of the options I wanted, I ordered one to be built. Just having taken delivery and spending a week with it I am not happy to report the following unannounced changes were made in the 2018 model:

1) the aluminum floor has been replaced with a monolithic composite floor, which doesn't sound bad until you step on it and feel it sag under your weight.. I weigh a modest 175lbs and my 105lb wife reports the same for her... you can definitely feel where the frame supports are and aren't when stepping on this floor. Also the floor dents easily.. after one trip i can already see permanent depressions in the floor where the top cabinet screws have dented the floor when in travel position. Not sure this flooring has enough support and is durable enough for this camper.
2) the dinette bench next to the divider wall now has a cut out in the bottom to fit over what appear to be larger wheel wells and is screwed to the floor! One of the selling points of the QS 10 was you could take the entire dinette outside... no more! and so much for the idea of using that bench as a cooler...
3) the divider wall trim cap is now a flat metal strip and is too wide for the divider wall and the overhanging metal edge is against the seat cushion on the screwed down bench.. not sure how long before it cuts the cushion.
4) unmoveable screwed down bench is too close to opposite bench so that table does not sit flat between them.. any weight on the canted table causes it to crash to the floor rendering it unusable as a sleeping platform.
5) the 12v round plug in the charging center is gone leaving only 2 usb ports... how do you plug in a 12v cooler now?
6) bed pole storage tube is now mounted diagonally under the frame which is ok on right side since frame there is slanted but on other side frame is straight so only one of two plastic mounting ears is bolted to frame.. I'm sure this plastic mount will crack over time due to flex.. needs a mounting bracket on the frame at that point to firmly secure the tube to frame.

Various other build issues noted, such as using too long of screws in the side bench top so they poke thru the padding and feel like nails when sitting on bench (i replaced all with shorter ones that dont extend thru seat base)

I do like the roominess of the camper and it travels well behind my car, even fully loaded.. but I can't say I'm happy with the changes noted above.. inquiry sent to LL and KZ about the saggy floor.. waiting on response. 

Title: Re: Caveat Emptor -2018 QS 10.0
Post by: Dan Miller on July 24, 2017, 03:33:15 PM
Just so you don't think you are inquiries are being ignored.  I did recieve your email this morning and forwarded it over to sales and product development.
-Dan
Title: Re: Caveat Emptor -2018 QS 10.0
Post by: Railsnstiles on July 24, 2017, 07:01:05 PM
I have looked forward to a qs10 for some time now and had hopes to order one within the next year. One of the main selling points has been the aluminum plank floor.  If that has been elimiinated it will be a deal breaker for me.  Any chance the squashy floor is something to do with the vinyl floor covering?
Title: Re: Caveat Emptor -2018 QS 10.0
Post by: smjcolsga on July 24, 2017, 09:00:28 PM
No, it is saggy, not squishy.. you can feel the floor 'give' a bit when stepping on an area not directly supported by a frame member.. I don't think the bonding layers (with a foam core) are stiff enough to support even 100lbs across the spans of the frame without flexing... and the foam core is easily dented through the flexible top layer leaving lasting impressions as i described above.. waiting to hear what LL or KZ have to say...
Title: Re: Caveat Emptor -2018 QS 10.0
Post by: DavidM on July 27, 2017, 02:24:17 PM
While I sympathize with those who feel that the composite floor is too springy and I haven't stepped on one myself, but I do believe it is an improvement over the old aluminum floor.

The aluminum floor leaked rain water because the joints weren't sealed. Also unless you put some sort of floor covering on, it was cold under foot.

The springing of the composite floor, while it may be annoying, is probably not a structural issue. Sandwich construction has tremendous ultimate strength and can stand a lot of flex before failure. I will bet that it will take a hundred pounds per square foot or more. Normal residential construction standards is about 40.

David
Title: Re: Caveat Emptor -2018 QS 10.0
Post by: jcamper on July 27, 2017, 02:45:45 PM
Thanks for the comparison details, as I have not stepped on or experienced either.  It would be helpful to understand all the pros/cons of each material to understand the reasons for the design change.  Thanks
Title: Re: Caveat Emptor -2018 QS 10.0
Post by: Dan Miller on July 27, 2017, 03:07:51 PM
David,

You are correct.  I don't doubt its capacity per sq/ft is less than the aluminum decking used in the past and it does flex in some places, if you are actually trying to feel any flexing, but on the plus side... it no longer allows the moisture through the floor that occurs when towing in the rain or on wet pavement allowing water to enter between the aluminum planks.   Though not really a huge issue as most individuals don't tow their trailer that often in rain but when they do, even in the travel trailers, have experienced water or dampness on the floor and have had issues trying to figure out where the water was coming from after sealing the wheel wells and every other suspicious conceivable area they just can't find where it comes from......  Including our service department.

It also adds insulation to the unit as does the new laminated sidewall.

-Dan
Title: Re: Caveat Emptor -2018 QS 10.0
Post by: smjcolsga on July 27, 2017, 10:28:34 PM
Livin' Lite tent campers are a niche market appealing to those buyers looking for a rugged and simple camper that will outlast their need for it. If I were worried about a few drops of moisture on the floor I'd be as worried about any water coming in through the tonneau cover too. People love these and hang onto them practically forever because they simply do not wear out. If the vinyl floor covering an aluminum decked QS wears out or is damaged it is easy to replace, not so with a thin vinyl topcoat permanently bonded to a few inch thick layer of styrofoam. Sorry but in my opinion that is not even close to being as durable as a solid metal floor. We happily pay a premium for these over other more fully equipped campers because of the way they are (were) built to last. I'm sorry to see that has changed. In any case, new buyers should be made aware of these substantial improvements [sic] so they can make an informed purchase decision for themselves.
Title: Re: Caveat Emptor -2018 QS 10.0
Post by: tinkeringtechie on July 28, 2017, 09:37:17 AM
We happily pay a premium for these over other more fully equipped campers because of the way they are (were) built to last. I'm sorry to see that has changed. In any case, new buyers should be made aware of these substantial improvements [sic] so they can make an informed purchase decision for themselves.

These changes are disappointing, but even more disappointing is that they weren't communicated to you before you made the purchase. Honestly, I would have (and still would) approach the dealer and tell them that this isn't what you agreed to buy. If I ordered a car and they delivered a vehicle with a foam floor, seats that don't fold down anymore, no 12v accessory plugs, and various other build issues then I wouldn't have even accepted it.
Title: Re: Caveat Emptor -2018 QS 10.0
Post by: smjcolsga on July 28, 2017, 10:25:01 AM

I would have (and still would) approach the dealer and tell them that this isn't what you agreed to buy. If I ordered a car and they delivered a vehicle with a foam floor, seats that don't fold down anymore, no 12v accessory plugs, and various other build issues then I wouldn't have even accepted it.

Because of a late delivery of the camper the day we left for our trip I did not have time to go over the unit as carefully as I should  have before driving off with it. I mean, who even knew these changes were in the works? I'm in communication with LL about all of this, waiting to see how they respond.

Title: Re: Caveat Emptor -2018 QS 10.0
Post by: Entropy3XD on July 30, 2017, 06:04:08 PM
So I just came on here to see if someone had the same concerns as I do about the 2018 10.0, and I concur with smjcolsgaís list.

I just picked mine up 2 days ago and had to drive 8 hours to get it.  I had purchased a 2017 model, but when I arrived to pick it up, it was damaged (fault of the dealer, not Liviní Lite).  The dealer made things right and I got a new 2018 they had just received.  Date of manufacture was June 13, 2017. 

Although Dan Miller and DavidM bring up excellent points regarding water and the aluminum floor, the 2018 floor has some give to it, and Iím very concerned about its lifespan.  An aluminum floor was the #1 factor in my choice on the Liviní Lite over a traditional popup.

I have not experienced smjcolsgaís  #4 issue with the table falling, but the table is thick and does not sit flush with the benches.  I share all other points on smjocolsgaís list. 

In addition, I also have the following issues & concerns.  Iíll pick up where smjcolsgaís list leaves off:

7. Looking under the trailer, I donít feel the holes are properly sealed.  They are sealed from the top using a foam sealer, but it does not go all the way through to the bottom, so the bottom side of the holes are open.  Iím not sure what material they use for the floor, but its compact foam with an outer layer that looks like some soft, thin wood like material, coated with some sort of black fabric type material. 
8. The vinyl floor has bubbles by both beds, which I would expect over time, but this one left the factory 6 weeks ago and Iíve only had it for two days.
9. In the 2017 model, on the inside, there are plastic covers which cover the wheels, one under the table and one inside the side bench.  These covers look to be one piece with a lip and are screwed to the floor, providing a nice seal.  On the 2018 model, the wheel cover and lip look to be two separate pieces and have a gap between them, which is sealed with black foam and it looks sloppy. 
10. When hooked up to an external hose, the faucet is unable to completely turn off, even when using a pressure reducer.  The only way to turn off the water is to put a valve on the outside, or turn it off at the source.  The faucet works fine using the tank, but is pretty much useless for using a hose.  If I need to go outside to turn the water on and off, I might as well just do everything outside and not use the sink.
11. Iím not sure what sink is used in the 2017, but the 2018 has a plastic sink, which does not look to be heat resistant at all.  I wouldnít put anything hot in that sink.
12. I have a model with a furnace.  On the 2017 the air intake has a panel on the outside, and looks to be easily serviceable.  On the 2018 there is no panel and the air intake is just a metal grate which is caulked to the body.
13.  The privacy curtains are completely unusable.  They use fabric straps with velcro, but they were made with the loop on each end, so there is no hook side.
14.  On the bench side of the camper, there is a large window with a canvas layer and a tinted plastic window layer.  There are two sets of lower straps, one for just rolling up the canvas and another for rolling up the canvas and window.  For the canvas, there is a strap on the left and right, but for the window, left strap is not there, so If I roll up the canvas and window, it comes unrolled on the left side.  The straps are sewed into the canvas tent, and I see no way to fix the issue without replacing the entire canvas tent.
15.  When we opened the camper, it was the first time it was opened since it left the factory.  Metal shavings were everywhere.  I would it expect some shavings, but it was obvious the camper was shipped without a quick vacuum or cleanup.
16.  The propane hose from the tank to the distributor underneath the camper needs to be about 3-4 inches longer.  You can tell itís strained and slightly kinked at the distributor.
17.  The propane hose from the distributor to the internal stove goes across one of the corner welds of the frame.  None of the welds were rounded with a grinder and they are very sharp.  In feeling the side of the hose that rests against the weld, I can already feel it getting cut up.
18. The welds on the frame look sloppy.  Iím not a welder, so I canít attest to the strength of the welds, but there was obviously no cleanup with a grinder.  I could be nit-picking a bit on this one as far as aesthetics go, it is a problem with those propane hoses and electrical lines draping over those sharp edges. 
19.  On the kitchenette, I ran my hand down the side, between the unit and the got cut by something.  When I looked down there I found metal shavings sticking out where the upper cabinet meets the frame.  I donít see an easy way to a fix this without taking the upper cabinet apart to separate the cabinet from the frame, so I could easily cleanup the shavings.  I could try to carefully clean it up without taking it apart, but the shavings are sandwiched in there, so Iím afraid Iíll scratch up the side of the cabinet trying to clean it up.
20. I also have the air conditioner and am really surprised there isnít a grate on the outside to protect the air fins on the unit.  Adding one couldnít cost that much more.  Again, maybe Iím nit-picking on this one, but Iím going to see if I can add a grate, as the unit sticks out and can easily be bumped into.
21. On the side bench, the padded top is secured with screws from the bottom.  When you sit down you can feel the tips of the screws, so I expect over time, these will eventually puncture through the material.


I fell in love with the 2017, but Iím not so sure I feel the same way about the 2018.  My advice to others looking for a 10.0 is to try and find a 2017 until the 2018 quality control issues are resolved.  I took pictures of everything and plan to call Liviní Lite tomorrow to see if I can get resolution to a few of my issues. 
 :(
Title: Re: Caveat Emptor -2018 QS 10.0
Post by: Entropy3XD on July 30, 2017, 06:07:01 PM
Forgot one.

22) On the bed frames, the corners are pretty sharp Iím afraid they will eventually tear into the tent.  These should be rounded a bit with a grinder to reduce the sharp corners and edges.  I canít see where a grinder or file was used anywhere on my unit.
Title: Re: Caveat Emptor -2018 QS 10.0
Post by: smjcolsga on July 30, 2017, 06:30:20 PM
I also had noticed the same 'build issues' such as sharp edges, sloppy sealing, etc but not having seen a previous year model myself I did not think to attribute these to be issues related to the 2018 change over. I concur with all the other points you mention with wheel wells, furnace, etc. as mine is identical in those respects though my faucet works ok. I replaced the bench screws with 3/8" pan head screws which don't poke through the base.
Title: Re: Caveat Emptor -2018 QS 10.0
Post by: DocktorJJ on July 30, 2017, 10:45:20 PM
I am so sorry for new owners. My 2017 21RBS, has the aluminum floor covered with vinyl flooring. No floor leaks to date. I do have the TPO roof which will be changed to aluminum as soon  as my warrantee expires. 

I would NOT buy a new Living Lite for the reasons you have raised.  I CAN NOT recommend the current product!  So Sad!  I really love my trailer, but not the new ones.

I. may be looking into an Oliver or Big foot if we ever sell our 21BRS.

Shame on you THOR!
Title: Re: Caveat Emptor -2018 QS 10.0
Post by: Railsnstiles on July 31, 2017, 01:38:31 AM
Sounds as if the resale market for "pre 2018's" may start heating up! 

Title: Re: Caveat Emptor -2018 QS 10.0
Post by: smjcolsga on July 31, 2017, 08:59:26 AM
My 2017 21RBS, has the aluminum floor covered with vinyl flooring. No floor leaks to date.
That is the kind of floor I was expecting to see on the 2018. In fact, I had seen only a bare aluminum decked QS 6 in person prior to ordering so the dealer directed me to a what I now guess was a 2017 Camplite he had on the lot to show me what the 10.0 floor would be like: that one had some sort of vinyl over the aluminum deck, which made it a little thicker and somewhat insulated from the bare metal. Not what the 2018 has despite all prior info I was given saying it did have the the aluminum deck and removable dinette (sales order description, online videos on their website, etc.)
Title: Re: Caveat Emptor -2018 QS 10.0
Post by: smjcolsga on July 31, 2017, 03:32:29 PM
I would NOT buy a new Living Lite for the reasons you have raised.  I CAN NOT recommend the current product! 
For certain some may see these changes as dubious improvements to a tried and true product, especially if one were basing a purchase decision on the previous offerings, and I personally would not have bought a 'first year' run when so many changes were introduced... the 2018 is essentially an all-new frame-up redesign. While we've been hitting all of the negatives so far, I will say that the new frame seems pretty robust and well built. The larger wheel wells are not bad if you don't mind that the dinette's removability is sacrificed, they're actually pretty strong looking imo. My unit does not have the problem of too short or kinked hoses and unfilled holes mentioned by the other owner but does have misaligned benches so it would seem production run procedures on these aren't quite dialed in just yet. The big issue in my mind is with the floor. If they would have built it with a really stiff composite bottom layer that could support an average person's weight across frame members without flexing then a lot of the other 'sins' could have been forgiven. Many would also look on the new insulated floor as a positive change rather than as a potential future liability. I think that was where they missed the mark on the whole redesign effort. Just my opinion YMMV.
Title: Re: Caveat Emptor -2018 QS 10.0
Post by: Entropy3XD on July 31, 2017, 06:43:10 PM
I'm in agreement with smjcolsga that the frame is solid and I can fix some of the quality issues on my own.  The floorÖÖitís a big issue for me.  The rest of the camper seems solid, but the flex in the floor and the look of the material underneath the unit just makes the whole thing feel cheap.  I purchased a Quicksilver hoping to have a camper frame and body which could last for 20 years, and I really donít think this one will come close to that. 
Title: Re: Caveat Emptor -2018 QS 10.0
Post by: Entropy3XD on August 01, 2017, 12:28:12 PM
Found another issue last night:

23.  On the kitchenette, the pictures on the website and brochure show the top, bottom and back edges of the cabinet to be finished off with aluminum edging.  On the 2018, there is no aluminum edging, and the sides are just glued in place, which leave a sharp edge along the cabinet.  The sides of the cabinet have also started to separate from the frame, as there is no aluminum edging to keep it in place.  The metal shavings in the corners of the cabinet are pretty much impossible to clean out, and are stuck in place due to the glue they use to adhere the sides of the cabinet to the frame.

I've reached out to Livin' Lite, as well as the dealer I purchased from.  Livin' Lite requested video or pictures, so I took videos of the issues and provided them today.  I'm waiting to hear from them on a resolution.   

Title: Re: Caveat Emptor -2018 QS 10.0
Post by: grecamp on August 03, 2017, 01:40:56 PM
Obviously LL has a very relaxed final quality control process in place as especially those shavings must be very easy to spot. Perhaps profit margins are very low on these campers?

Anyway, I had two families come to see my 8.0 last weekend on a campground here in Ohio. I advised them to avoid new Quicksilver and look for used units based on what I am reading here. Not that the older models were perfect!
Title: Re: Caveat Emptor -2018 QS 10.0
Post by: Entropy3XD on August 03, 2017, 03:06:00 PM
Obviously LL has a very relaxed final quality control process in place as especially those shavings must be very easy to spot. Perhaps profit margins are very low on these campers?

Anyway, I had two families come to see my 8.0 last weekend on a campground here in Ohio. I advised them to avoid new Quicksilver and look for used units based on what I am reading here. Not that the older models were perfect!

You can see some of the issues with the inside in the video linked below.  I'll have the video covering the undercarriage uploaded this evening, which is the one I think most people are interested in seeing.  I certainly don't expect perfection, but the quality is awful and I'm really upset I purchased a camper with an advertised aluminum floor, but did not receive one.  The dealer seemed pretty upset as well, since LL didn't reach out to anyone to inform them.  I spoke to another dealer this week and they were also not informed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2OZcum6GnI
Title: Re: Caveat Emptor -2018 QS 10.0
Post by: MarshHawk on August 03, 2017, 04:50:24 PM
Oh...this really makes me sick to my stomach! I have a 2018 waiting for me at the dealer, I don't even have it yet. I researched the heck out of Manufacturers to make this purchase. I went with livivLite based on their past successes. I spent a pretty penny on this brand because of the quality. As a first timer, I am not happy hearing all this. Also, I'm not a handyman. I intend on knowing and maintaining my systems and my trailer, but I do not see myself climbing under and over the unit trying to repair things that shouldn't be improperly installed.  🤢
Karen
Title: Re: Caveat Emptor -2018 QS 10.0
Post by: Entropy3XD on August 03, 2017, 05:33:46 PM
Oh...this really makes me sick to my stomach! I have a 2018 waiting for me at the dealer, I don't even have it yet. I researched the heck out of Manufacturers to make this purchase. I went with livivLite based on their past successes. I spent a pretty penny on this brand because of the quality. As a first timer, I am not happy hearing all this. Also, I'm not a handyman. I intend on knowing and maintaining my systems and my trailer, but I do not see myself climbing under and over the unit trying to repair things that shouldn't be improperly installed.  🤢
Karen

Hey, another Marylander!  What dealer you getting it from?  I recommend reaching out to them, as they might not even be aware of the switch.
Title: Re: Caveat Emptor -2018 QS 10.0
Post by: MarshHawk on August 04, 2017, 08:57:26 AM

Hey, another Marylander!  What dealer you getting it from?  I recommend reaching out to them, as they might not even be aware of the switch.

I am actually traveling out to Illinois to get it. The local dealer in Gambrills Md. (still 2 1/2 hrs away..over the Bay Bridge to boot) didn't have what I wanted and frankly had an attitude I didn't like at all.  I still like the features of Livin Lite. I love the design and I had faith in the company. That is being a little shaken right now by these reports of problems.  I have heard quality control issues on all manufacturers I researched, so I'm going to stick with my choice. However I think it's a crying shame that the lack of pride of workman ship these days has people forced to accept sub par work because there isn't any other choice. And I mean that in relation to most things produced, not just RVs.
Title: Re: Caveat Emptor -2018 QS 10.0
Post by: Entropy3XD on August 04, 2017, 09:53:24 AM

Hey, another Marylander!  What dealer you getting it from?  I recommend reaching out to them, as they might not even be aware of the switch.

I am actually traveling out to Illinois to get it. The local dealer in Gambrills Md. (still 2 1/2 hrs away..over the Bay Bridge to boot) didn't have what I wanted and frankly had an attitude I didn't like at all.  I still like the features of Livin Lite. I love the design and I had faith in the company. That is being a little shaken right now by these reports of problems.  I have heard quality control issues on all manufacturers I researched, so I'm going to stick with my choice. However I think it's a crying shame that the lack of pride of workman ship these days has people forced to accept sub par work because there isn't any other choice. And I mean that in relation to most things produced, not just RVs.

I know which dealer you're talking about and that's where I discovered Livin' Lite as they had a 2017 8.0.  I ended up picking mine up in North Carolina last week.  I'll have the video covering floor and under carriage uploaded today.  After watching that, you may want to reach out to your dealer just to cover the details before you make the trip.
Title: Re: Caveat Emptor -2018 QS 10.0
Post by: smjcolsga on August 04, 2017, 10:11:10 AM
being a little shaken right now by these reports of problems.

Keep in mind this thread is talking about recent changes to the Quicksilver 10.0 tent camper, the Camplites, if that's what you are looking at (judging by your signature line), are completely different campers and may not have the same changes described here. Another recent Camplite owner (JazzyPigsGa) has posted his/her impression of that model elsewhere on this site.
Title: Re: Caveat Emptor -2018 QS 10.0
Post by: dream34 on August 08, 2017, 04:12:27 PM
Just a quick question. Do these changes apply to the 8.0 and 8.1 trailers? Have the floors in those models been replaced with all composite, the 12v outlets done away with, and the dinette made immovable? If so I'm going to be in the market for one that is used.
Title: Re: Caveat Emptor -2018 QS 10.0
Post by: Entropy3XD on August 08, 2017, 04:59:00 PM
Just a quick question. Do these changes apply to the 8.0 and 8.1 trailers? Have the floors in those models been replaced with all composite, the 12v outlets done away with, and the dinette made immovable? If so I'm going to be in the market for one that is used.

Yes, the floor is changed across the tent camper line, as well as the 12v outlet (replaced with USB).  I 99% sure one of the benches is not removable in the 8.0\8.1, as it needs to be modified for the bigger wheel wells.  The wheel wells are bigger because they now use 15" tires for the standard package. 

Title: Re: Caveat Emptor -2018 QS 10.0
Post by: smjcolsga on August 08, 2017, 06:51:14 PM
The wheel wells are bigger because they now use 15" tires for the standard package.

Just checked my 2018 QS 10 standard and it has 12" wheels with ST145R12 tires mounted albeit with larger wheel wells than before. There is now a minimum 3" clearance as measured at the top of the tire.
Title: Re: Caveat Emptor -2018 QS 10.0
Post by: dream34 on August 08, 2017, 07:01:22 PM
I will say that due to a few other projects (Home remodel/Europe trip) I will not be in the market to purchase until next summer/fall. Hopefully by then they have these issues addressed. If not I'll likely either look elsewhere or buy used. It may be me, but the whole composite floor issue and 12v delete just smacks of nothing more than cutting production costs and thinking the consumer will just take it. One of the main appeals of the trailer was the aluminum construction, including the floor. Being that I'm in the gulf south and have kids the durability of the floor is much more important than insulation. They need to get it together and remember the very subtle balance between profit margins and customer satisfaction, especially when producing such a niche market product.
Title: Re: Caveat Emptor -2018 QS 10.0
Post by: RockorSomething on August 08, 2017, 07:44:48 PM
Quote from: Entropy3XD
  I 99% sure one of the benches is not removable in the 8.0\8.1, as it needs to be modified for the bigger wheel wells.  The wheel wells are bigger because they now use 15" tires for the standard package.

According to Livinlite, the benches are removable on the 2018 8.0/.8.1.
Title: Re: Caveat Emptor -2018 QS 10.0
Post by: Entropy3XD on August 08, 2017, 08:50:31 PM
Quote from: Entropy3XD
  I 99% sure one of the benches is not removable in the 8.0\8.1, as it needs to be modified for the bigger wheel wells.  The wheel wells are bigger because they now use 15" tires for the standard package.

According to Livinlite, the benches are removable on the 2018 8.0/.8.1.

RockorSomething, thank you for the correction.
Title: Re: Caveat Emptor -2018 QS 10.0
Post by: Dan Miller on August 09, 2017, 09:46:32 AM
Currently the benches ARE NOT removable in the 2018. Noticed I used the word currently.
Title: Re: Caveat Emptor -2018 QS 10.0
Post by: Entropy3XD on August 09, 2017, 08:24:03 PM
Noticed I used the word currently.

Dan....Thank you.  Good to know someone is listening.
Title: Re: Caveat Emptor -2018 QS 10.0
Post by: RockorSomething on August 11, 2017, 03:44:12 PM
Had a chance to speak with a representative at Livinlite about the flooring concerns being expressed here.

With his permission, I'm posting below an internal memo he forwarded to me.

Good morning Team.

The following are the laminated floor information.

∑         Absolutely NO WOOD in the super structure, including the floor system

∑         5 layers-We use 5 layers to construct the floor.  Lamilux fiberglass top, 1-layer of Azdel, polystyrene(High-density block foam insulation), lastly another layer of Azdel and Darco protective wrap

∑         Most laminated floor systems use wood product called luan, LL DOES NOT use wood.  We have thoroughly tested(weight per sq inch) this new and improved floor with the fiberglass top layer. it has outperformed the luan constructed laminated floor system used by many manufacturers in the RV industry.

∑         Aluminum framed floor. R-value is 10 VS previous way was R-0

∑         Heat/Cold transfer is less do to the insulated floor over the aluminum floor

∑         High-density Block foam adds noise reduction 

∑         More comfortable to stand on, Smooth fiberglass top, no ridges like the aluminum floor system

∑         This new advanced floor is lighter weight than the old floor system. 


I have to admit that having the opportunity to discuss the changes in detail went a long way to help alleviate my concerns.
Title: Re: Caveat Emptor -2018 QS 10.0
Post by: tinkeringtechie on August 11, 2017, 04:14:29 PM
Finally some info. Thanks for posting it... but why did it take two and a half weeks to get this and why isn't LL just posting it directly? Seems like it should be in their marketing materials honestly. So of the five layers, which is the brown fuzzy one from the video? Is that the fiberglass backing of the Azdel?
Title: Re: Caveat Emptor -2018 QS 10.0
Post by: DavidM on August 11, 2017, 04:28:01 PM
Well, after reading LLs description of the floor laminate and applying a bit of structural engineering, I think I know why the floor seems to sag a bit when you step on it.

Those materials: Azdel, styrofoam, Azdel may not be bonded to each other like foam cored construction for boats. Lack of bonding allows the layers to slip a little bit against each other when stress is put on them by standing. There isn't anything wrong with this- I am sure the floor won't fail. But if they were bonded together, it would be a whole lot stiffer.

Also it must be pretty thick overall, more than 1" to have an R10 rating.

David
Title: Re: Caveat Emptor -2018 QS 10.0
Post by: Entropy3XD on August 11, 2017, 04:31:39 PM

Also it must be pretty thick overall, more than 1" to have an R10 rating.

David

It seems to be about 1.5-2 inches.
Title: Re: Caveat Emptor -2018 QS 10.0
Post by: smjcolsga on August 11, 2017, 05:00:40 PM

I have to admit that having the opportunity to discuss the changes in detail went a long way to help alleviate my concerns.

Cross posting from alternate thread:

I'm glad that LL has confirmed our observations about the new floor construction, and I'm sure the overall materials used in its construction are up to the task. However, I still feel that they could have done a better job implementing it by adding additional floor supports (at least in the QS 10). When you feel the floor 'give' beneath your feet it does not inspire confidence in the new materials or design.. This is especially true when the previous model was well known for its rock-solid stability. This is my opinion, you should judge for yourself.
Title: Re: Caveat Emptor -2018 QS 10.0
Post by: smjcolsga on August 11, 2017, 08:03:38 PM
Well, after reading LLs description of the floor laminate and applying a bit of structural engineering, I think I know why the floor seems to sag a bit when you step on it.

Those materials: Azdel, styrofoam, Azdel may not be bonded to each other like foam cored construction for boats. Lack of bonding allows the layers to slip a little bit against each other when stress is put on them by standing. There isn't anything wrong with this- I am sure the floor won't fail. But if they were bonded together, it would be a whole lot stiffer.

Also it must be pretty thick overall, more than 1" to have an R10 rating.

David

I wonder also if there is an environmental aspect to using azdel layers for structural support... azdel is a thermoplastic material, I imagine ambient temperature would affect its performance in regard to overall stiffness. It frequently reaches near 100 degrees F ambient temperature here in Southwest Georgia. Am I seeing more of this effect on the unsupported spans of flooring because of that? Also, strictly speaking for myself, being in a warm climate, I see little need for a well-insulated floor in a tent-top camper. Really, what is the R-value of canvas anyway?
Title: Re: Caveat Emptor -2018 QS 10.0
Post by: RockorSomething on August 11, 2017, 10:28:23 PM
Quote from: smjcolsga
....
Also, strictly speaking for myself, being in a warm climate, I see little need for a well-insulated floor in a tent-top camper. Really, what is the R-value of canvas anyway?

Don't forget, that same insulation keeps cool, air conditioned air from escaping. Coupled with a 'Gizmo', every little bit of cool air helps keep me sane in July and August. :)
Title: Re: Caveat Emptor -2018 QS 10.0
Post by: smjcolsga on August 11, 2017, 10:33:47 PM
Quote from: smjcolsga
....
Also, strictly speaking for myself, being in a warm climate, I see little need for a well-insulated floor in a tent-top camper. Really, what is the R-value of canvas anyway?

Don't forget, that same insulation keeps cool, air conditioned air from escaping. Coupled with a 'Gizmo', every little bit of cool air helps keep me sane in July and August. :)

Ok, I'll bite... what's a "Gizmo" ?
Title: Re: Caveat Emptor -2018 QS 10.0
Post by: RockorSomething on August 11, 2017, 11:56:54 PM
Quote from: smjcolsga

Ok, I'll bite... what's a "Gizmo" ?

They can be made yourself using emergency survival blankets and a little ingenuity, but this company does the work for you.
http://www.popupgizmos.com/
Title: Re: Caveat Emptor -2018 QS 10.0
Post by: smjcolsga on August 12, 2017, 07:33:21 AM
... this company does the work for you.
http://www.popupgizmos.com/

Thank you, i had seen those in pics but didn't know they were commercially made. Definitely on my list... 
Title: Re: Caveat Emptor -2018 QS 10.0
Post by: smjcolsga on August 12, 2017, 07:58:47 AM


Don't forget, that same insulation keeps cool, air conditioned air from escaping.

You make a good point, I've seen that throwing a rug or two on the floor was a popular thing to do also. If LL can stiffen the floor or support it well enough to not move under foot then they may have a winner with the new floor design. Most, if not all, of the other perceived negative changes which were discussed in these threads could be fixed by owners themselves if they wanted to (adding back the 12v socket for one) although one could argue they shouldn't have to..
Title: Re: Caveat Emptor -2018 QS 10.0
Post by: smjcolsga on August 14, 2017, 08:53:10 AM
Closing this thread, 'nuff said and there's duplication in another poster's topic. Thanks.