Livin' Lite Forum

QuickSilver => QuickSilver Tent Campers => Topic started by: Entropy3XD on August 04, 2017, 03:53:26 PM

Title: 2018 Quicksilver 10.0
Post by: Entropy3XD on August 04, 2017, 03:53:26 PM
For those who are interested in the 2018 Quicksilver 10.0, here is a series of videos detailing the inside, outside, and changes to the 2018 model.  Although I offer up my own opinions, I recommend reserving judgement until you’ve had a chance to check one out in person.  I reached out to Livin' Lite and K.Z. five days ago about some of my issues and concerns, so I'm just waiting to hear back from them.

Part 1 - inside Tour
https://youtu.be/2d8B8HoxBgw

Part 2 - Outside Tour
https://youtu.be/AG-sd4aQXco

Part 3 - 2018 Changes and Quality Issues (Inside & Box)
https://youtu.be/W2OZcum6GnI

Part 4 - 2018 Changes to Floor and Frame
https://youtu.be/rDCflYi1Ftw
Title: Re: 2018 Quicksilver 10.0
Post by: tinkeringtechie on August 04, 2017, 05:56:07 PM
Wow, I just watched part of fourth video and I'm shocked. The unsupported spans of the floor are way bigger than I would have expected. And that fuzzy wood-looking material coming out of the holes looks mighty absorbent to be left unsealed. Even if it's not actually wood, that will most likely sop up water like crazy when road spray hits it. I didn't even think about how the new floor would hurt the cable/hose routing, but that one shot where the propane line is rubbing against a sharp aluminum corner is very concerning.
Title: Re: 2018 Quicksilver 10.0
Post by: smjcolsga on August 04, 2017, 07:14:51 PM
Wow! Great video showing all of the details of the 2018 change-ups. I have to say though that build quality must be all over the place on these because my unit's frame welds look a lot cleaner and straighter than those on your video. Mine is a standard on-road model and came off the line 22 June 2017. As for the floor, I did some research after the fact on the Lamilux brand and discovered it is basically a thin (3mm) glass reinforced polymer (grp) sheet with a 'foamed pvc' top deco layer 'permanently bonded' to the grp layer. It is meant to be used as the top layer in laminate structures for floors and walls. I understand that LL/KZ produce laminates in-house. Here is what Lamilux says on their website: www.lamilux.com

This new material will make it possible to use sandwich floor structures with less wood or even without wood in the future. This allows design engineers to achieve three key objectives: reduce weight significantly, improve resistance to damp and moisture, thus eliminating mould and swelling, and optimise thermal insulation in caravan flooring.

Whereas a single PVC layer has been affixed to wooden flooring surfaces in the past, LAMILUX Composites Floor now allows design engineers to take completely new approaches to floor design since this material is now an essential element in modern sandwich floor structures.

INSEPARABLE BOND BETWEEN PVC AND RESIN

Design concept: featuring a high proportion of woven material to ensure optimum strength, the flat glass-fibre reinforced composite (GRP) sheeting is given a PVC layer. This layer is added during the actual GRP manufacturing process itself, meaning that there is no need to use adhesive since a perfect bond is formed between foamed PVC and the GRP reinforcement layer.

The highly robust, lightweight composite material is only 3 millimetres thick and can be lined with any one of many different décor sheets. It is also completely odour-free since a styrene-free epoxide resin is used in the GRP. To form sandwich flooring, the client affixes the material to a foam structure, which preferably also features a GRP layer with a high proportion of glass-fibre woven material on its lower surface.
Title: Re: 2018 Quicksilver 10.0
Post by: Entropy3XD on August 05, 2017, 03:04:48 AM
Wow! Great video showing all of the details of the 2018 change-ups. I have to say though that build quality must be all over the place on these because my unit's frame welds look a lot cleaner and straighter than those on your video. Mine is a standard on-road model and came off the line 22 June 2017.

Interesting, so maybe I got the prototype and they started to dial things in the following week when yours was made :).  Thank you for the information on Lamilux.  I posted the videos on the Quicksilver Tent Camper group on Facebook, and one of the members who is into composites wanted to know what they use.  On your frame, did they add any additional support for the floor?  How did your kitchenette look.
Title: Re: 2018 Quicksilver 10.0
Post by: smjcolsga on August 05, 2017, 09:20:17 AM
The frame on mine looks identical to yours in basic construction with the large unsupported areas between outboard spars. I don't know why they didn't think to weld the short bars running front to back at the top of the crossbars rather than the bottom, that would have provided some support by cutting the unsupported areas in half (LL are you listening?) That was a great idea to measure the floor sag with different loads (special thanks to your daughter who showed that even less than a 100 lb load wasn't supported). My kitchenette is also as you describe, though having not seen a previous model I didn't notice the lack of finishing as you did. Read the Lamilux excerpt carefully and compare that against what you've seen on your unit's floor.  I'll leave it up to the readers then to form their own opinions, but see if you notice what I did about their expectaions of the product and recommended layup design...
Title: Re: 2018 Quicksilver 10.0
Post by: tinkeringtechie on August 06, 2017, 09:40:21 AM
I don't know why they didn't think to weld the short bars running front to back at the top of the crossbars rather than the bottom, that would have provided some support by cutting the unsupported areas in half (LL are you listening?)

Then they'd have to make sure the top welds were ground flat. This way they can go wild with the welds and never even clean them up.
Title: Re: 2018 Quicksilver 10.0
Post by: smjcolsga on August 06, 2017, 04:00:47 PM
Then they'd have to make sure the top welds were ground flat. This way they can go wild with the welds and never even clean them up.
With that, you may be closer to the reason than you think... up until this year, the QS tent campers were essentially all made-up by hand. Judging by the changes which were made, including laminated floor and walls, my guess is that KZ is looking to trim manufacturing costs by redesigning the QS tent campers so that much of them can be produced on the same production lines as thier other products. There is nothing at all wrong with that in and of itself, but if you change the way a product is made just in order to fit on a particular production line.. do you end up with the same product? well, you be the judge.
Title: Re: 2018 Quicksilver 10.0
Post by: whitecastleman on August 07, 2017, 01:40:26 PM
Great videos.  I'm watching this thread carefully.  Interesting that there has been no response from LL at this point. 
Title: Re: 2018 Quicksilver 10.0
Post by: tinkeringtechie on August 07, 2017, 05:40:21 PM
Interesting that there has been no response from LL at this point.

This is their chance to sell us on how great all these "improvements" are. I'm open minded... maybe there's some great benefit that I haven't noticed yet. But with complete silence we have to figure it out on our own (not looking great so far).

If there are reasons that these make for a better product then please share them. Even if those reasons are just "it's cheaper and easier to build", then at least tell us how much it's saving us, or give us the option pay more for the old version.
Title: Re: 2018 Quicksilver 10.0
Post by: whitecastleman on August 08, 2017, 07:57:38 AM
I may be mistaken, but I no longer see any reference on the LL website or promotional materials of the campers being "all aluminum with no wood to rot or steel to rust" which, in the past, was already featured prominently in all LL promotions.  I did see the following disclaimer though:

"Due to continual research and advances, manufacturer reserves the right to change specifications, design, price and equipment without notice, and assumes no responsibility for any error on this website. Some items shown are not included as standard or optional equipment."

I'm not sure about the rest of you, but this "disclaimer" does not inspire confidence for me.
Title: Re: 2018 Quicksilver 10.0
Post by: smjcolsga on August 08, 2017, 09:10:14 AM
I may be mistaken, but I no longer see any reference on the LL website or promotional materials of the campers being "all aluminum with no wood to rot or steel to rust" which, in the past, was already featured prominently in all LL promotions.

"Due to continual research and advances, manufacturer reserves the right to change specifications, design, price and equipment without notice,

LL removed the two walkthrough videos showcasing the QS 10.0's unique features, such as all aluminum decking and fully removable dinette, after my initial complaint about the lack of these on the 2018 model I received. They also told me they were updating the 2018 sales order form which listed those as 'standards'. Incidentally, the 2018 sales order form, essentially a contract to buy, had no such disclaimer.
Title: Re: 2018 Quicksilver 10.0
Post by: RockorSomething on August 08, 2017, 08:02:53 PM
Interesting that there has been no response from LL at this point.

This is their chance to sell us on how great all these "improvements" are. I'm open minded... maybe there's some great benefit that I haven't noticed yet. But with complete silence we have to figure it out on our own (not looking great so far).

If there are reasons that these make for a better product then please share them. Even if those reasons are just "it's cheaper and easier to build", then at least tell us how much it's saving us, or give us the option pay more for the old version.

Agreed.
I'm really trying to give Livinlite the benefit of the doubt with their product decisions. I know that, done properly, composites are superior to aluminum.
But their silence is frustrating.
Title: Re: 2018 Quicksilver 10.0
Post by: Entropy3XD on August 08, 2017, 08:49:14 PM


Agreed.
I'm really trying to give Livinlite the benefit of the doubt with their product decisions. I know that, done properly, composites are superior to aluminum.
But their silence is frustrating.
[/quote]

I'm with you, and if it wasn't for the poor quality and cost reductions elsewhere, I would be more open to the change.  I really think they need to redesign the frame to give support across the center span, so it feels a little more solid. 
Title: Re: 2018 Quicksilver 10.0
Post by: RockorSomething on August 08, 2017, 10:05:22 PM
...  I really think they need to redesign the frame to give support across the center span, so it feels a little more solid.

I'm curious, since the 8.0/8.1 are two feet shorter, if any flex can be felt in those models?

I would think it would be less pronounced.
Title: Re: 2018 Quicksilver 10.0
Post by: dream34 on August 09, 2017, 10:09:33 AM
Then they'd have to make sure the top welds were ground flat. This way they can go wild with the welds and never even clean them up.
With that, you may be closer to the reason than you think... up until this year, the QS tent campers were essentially all made-up by hand. Judging by the changes which were made, including laminated floor and walls, my guess is that KZ is looking to trim manufacturing costs by redesigning the QS tent campers so that much of them can be produced on the same production lines as thier other products. There is nothing at all wrong with that in and of itself, but if you change the way a product is made just in order to fit on a particular production line.. do you end up with the same product? well, you be the judge.

THIS!

Personally I could GAS about their production costs, as a consumer that's not my problem. I will say that they should have been smart enough to know that they produce a niche market product, targeted at a very specific group of folks. Personally, I would have been better with a raise in price if the same quality and durability was maintained. As it stands this seems to be nothing more than cost cutting measure for them, while they will likely sell the product to consumers for the same price or more. I guess they don't realize that the only way the profit margin increases is if you continue selling the same amount of product (or more). As I stated previously I'm not in the market to purchase for approximately another 10-12 months due to other projects, but if they have not rectified these issues, then I'll either be looking at picking up a used model or something from another manufacturer all together. I am also curious how the dealer's feel about this as they obviously are going to be taking some heat and likely have some of these things sitting on their lots unsold as a result. I'm betting if they take enough of a hit LL will go back to the original specs.   
Title: Re: 2018 Quicksilver 10.0
Post by: Mitch on August 09, 2017, 10:24:53 AM
I don't think manufacturers frequently return to previous specs unless the buying public has an option to purchase that spec somewhere else. In the case of the floor, I haven't seen it available from anyone now so I wouldn't expect Thor to change it back, they have no fiscal reason to do so. They care about making money, to do so they can raise prices, lower costs or combine the two.  This floor is a cheaper option on the same playing field as their competitors, case closed. 
Title: Re: 2018 Quicksilver 10.0
Post by: whitecastleman on August 09, 2017, 10:55:16 AM
I also doubt that Thor/LL will go back to the "all aluminum" feature that the LL company was originally built upon.  LL originally built a great product that many people were willing to pay extra for since it filed a niche market.  Little company gets bought out by big company, changes are made, corners are cut to increase revenue, quality control is lacking, and customer service is poor.  I used to be an enthusiastic LL supporter, but now I encourage people to stay away from the newer models and look for a good used one instead.   
Title: Re: 2018 Quicksilver 10.0
Post by: smjcolsga on August 09, 2017, 11:27:23 AM
I don't think manufacturers frequently return to previous specs unless the buying public has an option to purchase that spec somewhere else. In the case of the floor, I haven't seen it available from anyone now so I wouldn't expect Thor to change it back, they have no fiscal reason to do so.

Agreed. What they can, and hopefully will, do is listen to all of the customer feedback these threads are generating. Personally, with the exception of the current floor design, I think the QS is still a solidly built camper. If they take another shot at the floor design, say by adding a stiffer and tougher composite bottom layer and, particularly in the case of the QS 10, add a few supporting cross members over the large open spans of the frame so that the floor felt 'solid' underfoot, then I think customers would be more accepting and possibly see this as a logical evolution of design using modern materials and manufacturing techniques.
Title: Re: 2018 Quicksilver 10.0
Post by: RockorSomething on August 11, 2017, 03:47:42 PM
Im cross-posting the information below as I believe its relevant to the discussion...

Had a chance to speak with a representative at Livinlite about the flooring concerns being expressed here.

With his permission, I'm posting below an internal memo he forwarded to me.

Good morning Team.

The following are the laminated floor information.

·         Absolutely NO WOOD in the super structure, including the floor system

·         5 layers-We use 5 layers to construct the floor.  Lamilux fiberglass top, 1-layer of Azdel, polystyrene(High-density block foam insulation), lastly another layer of Azdel and Darco protective wrap

·         Most laminated floor systems use wood product called luan, LL DOES NOT use wood.  We have thoroughly tested(weight per sq inch) this new and improved floor with the fiberglass top layer. it has outperformed the luan constructed laminated floor system used by many manufacturers in the RV industry.

·         Aluminum framed floor. R-value is 10 VS previous way was R-0

·         Heat/Cold transfer is less do to the insulated floor over the aluminum floor

·         High-density Block foam adds noise reduction 

·         More comfortable to stand on, Smooth fiberglass top, no ridges like the aluminum floor system

·         This new advanced floor is lighter weight than the old floor system. 


I have to admit that having the opportunity to discuss the changes in detail went a long way to help alleviate my concerns.
Title: Re: 2018 Quicksilver 10.0
Post by: smjcolsga on August 11, 2017, 04:57:55 PM

I have to admit that having the opportunity to discuss the changes in detail went a long way to help alleviate my concerns.

I'm glad that LL has confirmed our observations about the new floor construction, and I'm sure the overall materials used in its construction are up to the task. However, I still feel that they could have done a better job implementing it by adding additional floor supports (at least in the QS 10). When you feel the floor 'give' beneath your feet it does not inspire confidence in the new materials or design.. This is especially true when the previous model was well known for its rock-solid stability. This is only my opinion, you should judge for yourself.
Title: Re: 2018 Quicksilver 10.0
Post by: dream34 on August 23, 2017, 02:26:10 PM
Honestly, I'm still not sold on any of the changes, but as luck would have it I was able to scour the internet and find a few 2017 8.0 trailers still for sale. I was able to get one at a bit below invoice since the 2018's are now on the lot, so all around its a win for me. 8) I did have to pull the trigger a bit earlier than I would have liked, but I also spent about $2300 less than I was expecting, so still a win. I should be picking it up over Labor Day weekend. All of that said I REALLY appreciate those of you who brought the changes to my attention, had I not known and waited until next spring/summer to purchase I would have been extremely disappointed.
Title: Re: 2018 Quicksilver 10.0
Post by: smjcolsga on August 23, 2017, 02:38:45 PM
Honestly, I'm still not sold on any of the changes, but as luck would have it I was able to scour the internet and find a few 2017 8.0 trailers still for sale.

My lovely wife and I were just up in Kentucky this week viewing the eclipse and I made a point to stop by a dealer there to look at a 2017 model QS to see an aluminum floor model for myself. In case anyone's in the market, Garland RV in Hopkinsville, Ky has one unsold 2017 QS 8.0 left on their lot.
Title: Re: 2018 Quicksilver 10.0
Post by: dream34 on August 23, 2017, 03:02:52 PM
Honestly, I'm still not sold on any of the changes, but as luck would have it I was able to scour the internet and find a few 2017 8.0 trailers still for sale.

My lovely wife and I were just up in Kentucky this week viewing the eclipse and I made a point to stop by a dealer there to look at a 2017 model QS to see an aluminum floor model for myself. In case anyone's in the market, Garland RV in Hopkinsville, Ky has one unsold 2017 QS 8.0 left on their lot.

Nope, I just claimed it  ;)
Title: Re: 2018 Quicksilver 10.0
Post by: smjcolsga on August 23, 2017, 03:10:47 PM
Nope, I just claimed it  ;)

Yep, the '17s are going FAST! Glad you got that when you did, it looked like a good one!
Title: Re: 2018 Quicksilver 10.0
Post by: Entropy3XD on August 24, 2017, 07:40:31 AM
[quote author=smjcolsga link=topic=436.msg2117#msg2117 date=1503513525

My lovely wife and I were just up in Kentucky this week viewing the eclipse and I made a point to stop by a dealer there to look at a 2017 model QS to see an aluminum floor model for myself. In case anyone's in the market, Garland RV in Hopkinsville, Ky has one unsold 2017 QS 8.0 left on their lot.
[/quote]

Hey, I was close to you this week and almost drove up to Garland RV.  I was at Land Between the Lakes.